The Cross Examination Of June Chandler Schwartz

During the molestation trial of 2005, June Chandler Schwartz took the stand as a witness for the prosecution.

Her son Jordan was also asked to testify but he refused.

In this part of the transcript, she is cross-examined by Michael’s defense attorney, Thomas Meserau.

She confirmed that she accepted expensive gifts from Michael and that she allowed the friendship to continue even after she claimed she started to feel uncomfortable about it, she also reveals that as of the time of her taking the stand, she hadn’t spoken to her son in 11 years.

Transcript of Cross-examination of June Chandler Schwartz (April 11 2005)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MESEREAU:

Q. Mrs. Chandler, my name is Tom Mesereau and I speak for Michael Jackson, okay?
A. Yes.
Q. If anything I ask you is not clear, please don’t answer. Just say you don’t understand it, and I’ll try to rephrase it, okay?
A. Okay.
Q. Now, in response to the prosecutor’s questions, you said you entered into a stipulation regarding custody of your son Jordie, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And in response to the prosecutor’s questions, you said you did it because Michael Jackson told you to do it, right?
A. One of the people. He was one.
Q. Well, do you remember signing a sworn declaration regarding that stipulation?
A. I remember signing something about custody of Jordie.
Q. Do you remember signing a sworn declaration in which you said the only reason you signed the stipulation was because your ex-husband wouldn’t return Jordie to you if you didn’t, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And you said further, you thought the stipulation was merely for a one-week visitation period, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Nowhere in that declaration did you say anything about Michael Jackson telling you to sign anything, right?
A. That’s not correct.
Q. Would it refresh your recollection to look at your declaration?
A. I’d be happy to.
MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Miss Chandler, have you had a chance to look at that sworn declaration?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what you said in the declaration?
A. Sort of.
Q. Isn’t it true you said the only reason you signed it was because your ex-husband told you that if you didn’t sign the stipulation, you would not have Jordan returned to you, right?
A. That’s correct.
Q. You said that was the only reason, correct?
A. That’s not the only reason.
Q. Well, you signed it under penalty of perjury, did you not?
A. I wasn’t asked who else was asking me to sign it.
Q. Who prepared the declaration for you to sign?
A. Evan Chandler’s attorney.
Q. Were you represented by counsel when you signed this declaration?
A. Oooh. I might have been.
Q. You actually were, weren’t you?
A. I — I don’t recall.
Q. You were represented by counsel because you were trying to set aside the stipulation in court, right?
MR. SNEDDON: Well, Your Honor, I’m going to object to that. That’s misleading as to point and time, and vague. MR. MESEREAU: It’s not misleading at all.
MR. SNEDDON: Wait a minute, Counsel. Judge, I object as vague as to time as to when she was represented.
THE COURT: All right. I’ll sustain the objection. It’s an argumentative question.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Miss Chandler, at some point you hired a lawyer to help you set aside that stipulation, right?
A. I don’t know if that was the reason why an attorney was hired, if it was for that reason.
Q. And your attorney prepared your declaration, true?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Do you recall if the stipulation was ever set aside by your attorney?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Do you recall being represented by an attorney named Freeman?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And who is Mr. Freeman?
A. He’s an attorney that represented me for a short time.
Q. Do you recall asking Michael Jackson if he would loan David Schwartz four million dollars?
A. Never.
Q. You say you never did that?
A. Never did that.
Q. Okay. Do you recall your ex-husband David Schwartz asking you to do that?
A. Never.
Q. Do you recall him being five million dollars in debt around the time you were associating with Michael Jackson? A. No.
Q. Don’t recall that at all?
A. Not at all.
Q. Okay. When you sued Michael Jackson, you sued through Larry Feldman, true?
A. I did not sue Michael Jackson. Jordan Chandler and his family were — that was his family. We did not sue Michael Jackson.
Q. Okay. So you never sued him yourself, you’re saying?
A. I don’t believe that’s how it was worded.
Q. Okay. Do you recall meetings with your attorney about that lawsuit?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Now, you — you and Jordan’s father Evan were divorced in 1985, true?
A. Correct.
Q. And you obtained sole custody of Jordan, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you had an informal arrangement where Evan could have custody or at least visitation rights of Jordie from time to time, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. What year did you marry David Schwartz?
A. 1985.
Q. Now, is it correct that he became Jordan’s stepfather?
A. Correct.
Q. And for how long was he Jordie’s stepfather?
A. For approximately six to eight years.
Q. What year did he cease to be Jordie’s stepfather?
A. When we divorced.
Q. And what year was that?
A. 1994.
Q. And how old is Jordie now?
A. He is 25 years old.
Q. Can I ask you when you last spoke to him?
A. 11 years ago.
Q. At one point, David Schwartz sued Michael Jackson, correct?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Do you recall him suing Michael Jackson claiming that Michael had interfered with his business?
MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to object as immaterial; irrelevant; calls for hearsay.
THE WITNESS: I don’t recall.
THE COURT: It’s vague as to time.
MR. MESEREAU: Okay. I’ll rephrase it, Your Honor.
Q. Around the time you and Evan and Jordie sued Michael Jackson with Attorney Larry Feldman, do you recall your ex-husband, David Schwartz, also suing Michael Jackson?
MR. SNEDDON: Same objection, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: I don’t recall.
THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.
THE WITNESS: I don’t recall.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Do you recall, in response to your lawsuit, Mr. Jackson suing for extortion?
MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to object to that question.
THE COURT: Sustained. Foundation.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You sued Michael Jackson, right?
A. Jordan Chandler sued Michael Jackson.
Q. Were you listed as a plaintiff?
A. Yes.
Q. And in response to your suit, Mr. Jackson sued for extortion, true?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Okay. Were you and Evan and Jordie all represented by Larry Feldman?
A. Yes, we were.
Q. Do you know approximately when that suit settled?
A. I guess in ’95.
Q. Do you recall Evan suing Mr. Jackson a second time?
A. No.
Q. Don’t know anything about that?
A. Nothing.
Q. Never heard about it?
A. No.
Q. Do you know who Attorney Barry Rothman is?
A. Yes.
Q. Who is Attorney Barry Rothman?
A. He was Evan Chandler’s attorney.
Q. Do you recall Attorney Barry Rothman also suing Michael Jackson?
A. No, I don’t.
Q. Okay. Now, during your trips with Michael Jackson, do you recall the name “Sony” ever being mentioned?
A. Yes.
Q. And in what context was Sony mentioned?
A. The gifts that Michael Jackson gave were from Sony. Sony recorders. We flew on the Sony jet. That’s what I remember.
Q. And do you recall, around the time you were associating with Michael Jackson, that Michael Jackson had an endorsement deal with PepsiCo?
A. Yes.
Q. And to your knowledge, that was the most lucrative endorsement deal anyone in the music business had ever entered into with PepsiCo, correct?
A. I didn’t know that.
MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, that’s immaterial and irrelevant.
THE COURT: Foundation; sustained.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you recall learning from Michael Jackson that he owned an interest in The Beatles’ catalog?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you discuss that with Mr. Jackson?
A. Never.
Q. Did you discuss his deal with PepsiCo with Mr. Jackson?
A. No.
Q. When you filed your lawsuit against Mr. Jackson, your attorney was threatening to ruin Mr. Jackson’s music deals, correct?
A. No. Not that I recall.
Q. You don’t recall that at all?
A. Not at all.
Q. Do you recall participating in settlement negotiations?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you participated in settlement negotiations, where did you used to meet?
A. Larry Feldman’s offices.
Q. When did you last talk to Larry Feldman?
A. Oh, a few days ago.
Q. Did you talk about what you were going to say in court?
A. No.
Q. Did you talk about what he said in court?
A. Briefly.
Q. Did he call you or did you call him?
A. I called him.
Q. Before this discussion a few days ago, when was the last time before that you had spoken to Larry Feldman?
A. Oh, um, maybe two months before that.
Q. And did you talk to him about this case in that discussion?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you talk to him about what you were going to say?
A. No.
Q. Did you call him or did he call you?
A. I called him.
Q. Did you talk on the phone with him or did you meet with him?
A. Yes, talk on the phone.
Q. Before that discussion, when had you last spoken to Attorney Larry Feldman?
A. Perhaps ten years ago.
Q. Okay. But you never discussed anything about this case in those discussions, right?
A. No.
Q. And you never talked about what you were going to be asked in this courtroom in any of those discussions, right?
A. Not to that effect, no.
Q. Did Mr. Feldman tell you he represents the Arvizos in either of those discussions?
A. I don’t know what that is.
Q. Okay. So he never talked about his representing anyone associated with this case, besides you, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, you said something in response to the prosecutor’s questions about your son changing the way he dressed at one point, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Didn’t your son used to try and dress like Michael Jackson before he even met him?
A. When he was very young.
Q. Did you meet with the prosecutor before you testified today?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you meet with the prosecutor to talk about anything you said today?
A. Two days ago.
Q. And where was that meeting?
A. In downtown L.A.
Q. And who did you meet with?
A. With my attorney.
Q. And who is your attorney?
A. Brad Barnholtz.
Q. Who else did you meet with?
A. Tom Sneddon.
Q. Okay. How long a discussion was that?
A. Oh, perhaps an hour and a half.
Q. Did you talk about what you were going to say today?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Mr. Sneddon go over some questions that he was going to ask you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever go over some answers that you were going to give?
A. Yes.
Q. When had you met with Mr. Sneddon before that meeting?
A. Never.
Q. Have you talked to him on the phone?
A. Yes.
Q. How many times?
A. Once or twice.
Q. Okay. Now, where did you first meet Michael Jackson?
A. At Rent-A-Wreck. The business of my ex-husband.
Q. And that was the day that Mr. Jackson had a problem with his car, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And when did you see him after that initial meeting?
A. I guess maybe approximately a few months after that.
Q. The first meeting was approximately August ’92, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. And when do you think the next meeting was?
A. Perhaps maybe in February.
Q. Okay. And again, how did that meeting happen? Who called who?
A. How did the meeting –
Q. The second meeting. The first time you saw him when he had a problem with his car, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And then there was a meeting after that?
A. Right.
Q. How did that happen?
A. Through phone conversations with my son. And he — and Michael Jackson invited us to Neverland.
Q. Okay. How did you get to Neverland?
A. By car. By my car. I drove.
Q. Okay. And did you stay over at Neverland that first time?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. How long did you stay?
A. I would say for two nights. One or two nights.
Q. Okay. And your daughter was there as well, right?
A. Yes, she was.
Q. Okay. And you said that you, your daughter, your son, stayed in the guesthouses, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, what did you do during the day during that visit, during the two days you were there?
A. We watched movies. We went on rides. We visited his zoo. Things like that.
Q. Okay. And how did you get home? Did you drive?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When did you next talk to Michael Jackson after that?
A. Oh, I think probably the day after we got back.
Q. Did he call you?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did you talk to him?
A. Yes.
Q. And when did you get together again?
A. Perhaps a week later. A week or two later.
Q. Did you go to Neverland again?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. How did you get there?
A. He drove. His — sorry, his chauffeur drove
Q. Okay. And did you stay over –
A. Yes.
Q. — on that second trip?
A. Yes.
Q. And how long was your stay over there?
A. A couple of nights.
Q. Okay. Do you remember what you did on that second trip?
A. Same thing.
Q. Okay. Did you see Michael very often on the first trip?
A. The whole time, yes.
Q. Did you see him –
A. Yes.
Q. — very often on the second trip?
A. Yes.
Q. When you said you went to the zoo and did these fun things, was Michael always with you?
A. The first and second time?
Q. Yes.
A. Basically, yes.
Q. Okay. Did you have dinner in the main house with Michael?
A. Yes.
Q. And of course your children were there too, right?
A. Correct.
Q. After that second trip, when did you next have contact with Michael, if you remember?
MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to object to the use of the first name.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. MESEREAU: I’ll say “Michael Jackson,” Your Honor.
Q. After your second visit to Neverland, did you have further contact with Michael Jackson?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And please explain what your next contact was all about.
A. I don’t know if that was the time we again went to Neverland or we had taken a trip to Las Vegas.
Q. Now, in your discussion with the Los Angeles District Attorney in 1993, you talked about your visits with Mr. Jackson, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Have you looked at that transcript recently?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you last look at the transcript?
A. Briefly, today.
Q. And how did you get a copy of it?
A. Through Mr. Sneddon.
Q. Okay. Did he ask you to read it today?
A. Did he ask me to read it today?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. Did he ask you to read it at any time?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And when was that?
A. Last week.
Q. Did he give you anything else to read before you testified?
A. That’s it.
Q. Okay. And did you read it from cover to cover?
A. Tried.
Q. Pardon me?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Okay. You told the District Attorney in Los Angeles when describing your first trip there, “Michael Jackson wasn’t the superstar. He was a regular person, and we couldn’t believe how nice he was,” right?
A. Correct.
Q. And you said that after you got there, he offered to let you stay over, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Your plan initially wasn’t to stay over, right?
A. Correct.
Q. You said that first night, Jordie actually knocked at your door and said he was going to stay with you, right?
A. Correct.
Q. So the first night he stayed with you and your daughter, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. Now, when did you go to Toys-R-Us with Michael Jackson?
A. Could have been the first visit or the second visit.
Q. Okay. And did Michael Jackson offer to take you there?
A. Yes.
Q. And he did take you there, right?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did he drive or did you have a driver take you there, do you know?
A. We must have had a driver.
Q. Okay. Now, at one time, did you visit Roy Disney’s widow with Michael?
A. Never.
Q. Okay. At some point you told the Los Angeles District Attorney that Michael was visiting Roy Disney’s widow in Beverly Hills; do you remember that?
A. Not really, but I don’t recall.
Q. Do you recall telling that to the Los Angeles District Attorney?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Would it refresh your recollection to let you see that page?
A. Yes.
MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to look at that?
A. Yes.
Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what you told the Los Angeles District Attorney?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did you tell them about that?
A. I said that I was — we had left and Michael was — I had left Neverland with Jordie and Lily, and he was going to visit Roy Disney’s widow.
Q. Okay. Now, was that while you were visiting Neverland?
A. After we left.
MR. SNEDDON: Object as to vague as to time as to what visit.
MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it.
Q. During what visit did Michael Jackson tell you he had to visit Roy Disney’s widow?
A. The first visit.
MR. SNEDDON: Object as to hearsay.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Was it the first visit?
A. I think so.
Q. Do you recall if you and your family stayed at Neverland while Mr. Jackson left the premises?
A. I don’t recall that.
Q. Okay. Do you recall him making a trip like that?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. You talked about gifts that Mr. Jackson gave you, okay?
A. Okay.
Q. Did you ever ask for any of those gifts?
A. No.
Q. Did he just give them to you on his own initiative as far as you’re concerned?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Tell us all the gifts you recall him giving you.
A. A gold bracelet. A pair of earrings. A necklace. A ring. A gift certificate to a boutique. That’s what I recall.
Q. Okay. And you said he gave you his credit card to use?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he do that more than once?
A. He might have, yes.
Q. And do you recall what you bought with Michael Jackson’s credit card?
A. I know I — I think two handbags.
Q. Anything else?
A. Not that I recall, no.
Q. Okay. How many nights do you recall Mr. Jackson staying at your house?
A. To the best of my recollection, 30 nights.
Q. And approximately what time period was that, if you know?
A. Beginning the middle of April till the end of May.
Q. Were you at your house on every evening that Michael Jackson stayed over?
A. Yes.
Q. You said something to the effect, I believe, that Mr. Jackson would leave during the day?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you know where he went?
A. Not really. I –
Q. Did you ever ask him?
A. Sometimes.
Q. Okay. And where did he tell you he was going?
A. Going home.
Q. To Neverland?
A. Working. No, not to Neverland. I think his hideout, to his place that he calls “The Hideout” in Century City.
Q. That’s the place you visited, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. How many times were you at that apartment?
A. Approximately three or four times.
Q. Okay. When you went to the apartment that you’ve described as Michael Jackson’s hideout, were you always with your son?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you ever with anyone else?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Okay. You indicated you met someone named Brett Barnes at Neverland, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you know when you first met him?
A. It could have been the second time that we were going to Neverland.
Q. And he was actually in the limousine that Michael Jackson sent to pick you up, right?
A. Correct.
Q. Was that the first time you had met him?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Was that the trip you went to Disneyland?
A. It could be, yes.
Q. And was Brett Barnes with you on that trip?
A. I would assume so. I’m — I don’t recall.
Q. Do you know if his mother was there on that trip?
A. No.
Q. So it was you, Michael Jackson, your two children, and Brett, right?
A. Perhaps Brett.
Q. You’re not sure?
A. Exactly.
Q. Did you go back to Neverland after the trip to Disneyland?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Okay. You indicated you met someone named Joy, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And when did you meet someone named Joy?
A. Later on, in — could be May. April or May.
Q. And where did you meet her?
A. At Neverland.
Q. Okay. Was she staying there when you stayed there?
A. Yes.
Q. And did she have a son, to your knowledge?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. And who was that?
A. Wade.
Q. Okay. How often did you see Joy Robeson and Wade Robeson at Neverland?
A. I remember seeing Joy once. And Wade, I — it could be a few times. I don’t recall.
Q. When you were at Neverland at the same time that they were there, did you associate with them?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what did you do with them?
A. I had dinner with Joy, where we talked. And with Wade, if we went — if there was a movie playing, I guess he was with us also.
Q. When Michael Jackson used to stay at your home, were you in the middle of a divorce proceeding?
A. No.
Q. Were you separated?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you used to discuss your problems with David Schwartz with Michael Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. You actually had a lot of discussions, didn’t you?
A. Not a lot.
Q. You told him it was a poor relationship, didn’t you?
A. What was a poor relationship?
Q. Your relationship with David Schwartz.
A. I told whom? I’m sorry.
Q. Michael Jackson.
A. Oh. No. I — I don’t — I didn’t get into my relationship about David Schwartz to Michael.
Q. So you never discussed it with Michael Jackson?
A. I just said that we were separated and these were not wonderful times for us.
Q. And you would discuss with him from time to time the problems you were having, wouldn’t you?
A. No. No, I wouldn’t.
MR. SNEDDON: Object as irrelevant, Your Honor, not to mention hearsay.
THE COURT: Overruled. The answer was, “No.” Next question.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: During those 30 nights that Michael Jackson stayed at your house, did he have dinner at your house?
A. Yes.
Q. And was it usually you, he, your son and daughter at dinner?
A. At times.
Q. Who else would join you for dinner?
A. That’s it.
Q. Did you ever have dinner yourself, without your children, just with Michael Jackson?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever traveled with Michael Jackson without your children?
A. No.
Q. When did you go to Las Vegas with Michael Jackson?
A. Around the end of March.
Q. And what was the purpose of that trip?
A. I guess Steve Wynn, the owner of the Mirage Hotel, invited Michael to come and stay and vacation in Las Vegas for a few days.
Q. And did you meet Mr. Wynn while you were there?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. How long were you in Las Vegas for that trip?
A. Two or three nights.
Q. And again, how did you get there?
A. Steve Wynn’s jet.
Q. And did his jet take you back home afterwards?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. When you went to Las Vegas on Steve Wynn’s jet, had Michael Jackson begun to stay over at your home?
A. No.
Q. Did Michael Jackson begin to stay at your home after that trip to Las Vegas?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you travel with Michael Jackson to any other cities in America during this period of time?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you travel to?
A. To Florida and New York.
Q. Was that Orlando, Florida?
A. Correct.
Q. And when did that trip happen, approximately?
A. Oh, approximately April, I guess.
Q. And what was the purpose of that trip, if you know?
A. To go to Disney World.
Q. Did you do that?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. How long a trip was that?
A. A couple of days.
Q. And then did you come back?
A. Yes.
Q. The rooms in your hotel, describe the rooms, if you would.
A. I don’t remember The Grand Floridian, what 3 the rooms were like.
Q. And did you have your own room?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Michael Jackson have his own room?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And did your children have their own room?
A. I’m not sure.
Q. Do you know where your children stayed?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did they stay?
A. Jordie, my son, stayed with Michael, and Lily stayed with me.
Q. And did you ever object, during that trip, to your son staying with Michael?
A. No.
Q. You never suspected anything improper was going on on that trip, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. You mentioned some children from New Jersey that you met at Neverland, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And who were they again?
A. Frank and Eddie Cascio.
Q. Okay. And did you ever meet their parents?
A. No.
Q. When did you first see them at Neverland?
A. I don’t recall. Could be the third visit to Neverland. Fourth visit.
Q. When was the first time your son Jordan asked if he could sleep with Michael Jackson?
A. I would say starting the third visit to Neverland, second or third visit to Neverland, because there were always boys around and staying in his bedroom, and why couldn’t he? And that’s when he started asking.
Q. And was it your understanding that there were a lot of kids hanging around Michael Jackson’s bedroom?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see –
A. Boys.
Q. Excuse me. Did you see a lot of kids at Neverland while you were there?
A. A lot of Michael’s –
MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me. Object as to vague.
MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it. Let’s go through the first trip.
Q. Did you see a lot of kids at Neverland during your first trip?
A. No.
Q. Did you see a lot of kids at Neverland during your second trip?
A. No.
Q. How many other children at Neverland did you see on your first trip?
A. No other kids on the first trip.
Q. How many kids at Neverland did you see on your second trip?
A. One.
Q. How about your third trip?
A. Third — Frank and Eddie Cascio.
Q. Any other children on the third trip?
A. It could have been Macaulay Culkin also.
Q. Okay. Did you meet Macaulay Culkin at Neverland?
A. Yes.
Q. Macaulay Culkin doesn’t look at all like your son, does he?
A. No.
Q. Did you meet Macaulay’s parents?
A. Father.
Q. At Neverland?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was, you think, the third trip?
A. Could be. Could have been.
Q. Did you ever see him at Neverland again?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you next see Macaulay Culkin at Neverland?
A. Fourth or fifth visit.
Q. Was anyone else from his family there; do you know?
A. His brothers were there.
Q. Okay. Was it your understanding that the Culkins were good friends of Michael Jackson?
A. That Macaulay Culkin was good friends with Michael Jackson.
Q. What about his family? Was it your understanding his family were close friends of Michael Jackson?
A. Not close friends.
Q. Did you really know?
A. It didn’t appear that they were close friends, no.
Q. Do you know if his parents used to visit Neverland?
A. His father used to visit Neverland with Macaulay.
Q. Did you hang out with them when you were at Neverland?
A. Did I hang out with –
Q. The Culkins.
A. No.
Q. Then how would you know whether or not they were close with Michael Jackson?
MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to object as argumentative.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you were in Las Vegas with Mr. Jackson, you went to Cirque du Soleil, correct?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did your son?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And did your daughter go as well?
A. To Cirque du Soleil?
Q. Yes.
A. No, she did not.
Q. Did you have any problem at that time letting your son go to Cirque du Soleil with Mr. 12 Jackson?
A. No.
Q. And did your son stay with Mr. Jackson that evening, to your knowledge?
A. To my knowledge, yes.
Q. Okay. You told the prosecutor that Mr. Jackson got upset at one point about your not trusting him, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And he said words to you to the effect that, “We’re family,” right?
A. Correct.
Q. You suggested that you let Jordie sleep wherever he wants to sleep, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you told him, “Look, I’ve had two husbands that I can’t trust,” right?
A. Correct.
Q. You said, “I think you’re a wonderful person, but I can’t let my trust down,” right?
A. Correct.
Q. And you described Michael as saying that he was going to take care of you, right?
A. No.
MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, excuse me, I’m going to object as vague as to point in time of the conversation.
MR. MESEREAU: Sure. Sure.
Q. When was the conversation where Michael got upset because he didn’t think you trusted him?
A. In Las Vegas in the hotel room.
Q. Okay. You said to Michael, “I’ve had males in my life that, you know, have disappointed me. How can I have you in my life and you’re saying that you’re going to take care of us, that you’re so wonderful, everything’s going to be okay, how am I going to do that?”
MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to object to counsel reading from the document.
MR. MESEREAU: I haven’t finished the question yet, Your Honor.
MR. SNEDDON: Well, he’s reading –
THE COURT: Well, all right, what is the question?
MR. MESEREAU: I was going to ask her if she made that statement.
THE COURT: All right. You may.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you make a statement to that effect?
A. Yes.
Q. And Michael said to you he wanted a family to just treat him like a regular person, right?
A. Correct.
Q. He said he didn’t want to be like a stranger, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And he asked you to trust him, right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you remember telling the District Attorney in Los Angeles that when you talked to your ex-husband Evan about Michael Jackson’s relationship with your family, that Evan saw this as a wonderful means for Jordie not having to worry for the rest of his life?
A. Would you repeat your question?
Q. Yes. Didn’t you tell the Los Angeles District Attorney that your ex-husband Evan, the father of Jordie, told you that the relationship with Michael was a wonderful means of Jordie not having to worry for the rest of his life?
A. Yes.
Q. And to you, that meant Michael Jackson supporting you financially for the rest of your life, correct?
A. No.
Q. That’s what you thought your ex-husband meant by it, true?
MR. SNEDDON: Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: Speculation.
THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained.
(Laughter.)
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Just asking you what you thought, not what your ex-husband thought.
A. Well, I’m speculating also. I would be speculating if I answered.
Q. Well, if someone says to you, “This is a wonderful way not to have to worry for the rest of our life,” doesn’t that suggest that maybe someone is thinking about Michael Jackson supporting you?
MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to object. We just went through this. Calls for speculation.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When did you go to France and Monaco with Michael Jackson?
A. In May.
Q. Did he invite you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he invite your whole family?
A. Jordan and Lily, yes.
Q. At one point you said that Michael Jackson stayed at your ex-husband’s house when Jordan was there, correct? A. Correct.
Q. And to your knowledge, was your ex-husband at the house when Michael Jackson stayed there?
A. Yes.
Q. How many days, to your knowledge, did Michael Jackson stay at your ex-husband’s house?
A. Approximately four to seven days.
Q. To your knowledge, was that consecutive or were they periodic visits?
A. Consecutive.
Q. And do you recall anything about your ex-husband wanting Michael Jackson to finance a wing on his house?
A. Yes.
Q. And to your knowledge, Michael Jackson never did that, right?
A. No.
Q. Now, at that point in time, Jordan’s father Evan was writing a screenplay, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And to your knowledge, he was spending a lot of time on that screenplay, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were complaining that he wasn’t spending enough time with his son, right?
A. Correct.
Q. At the time you were happy that Michael was around, because Jordan’s father was not spending time with him, and you were separated from David, correct?
A. True.
MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object as to vague as to what time, time period. We have several months here.
MR. MESEREAU: Well, I can –
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
MR. SNEDDON: Move to strike the answer.
THE COURT: Stricken.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did there come a time when you were happy that Michael Jackson was around, because your ex-husband Evan was spending time writing a screenplay and you were separated from David?
A. Correct.
Q. Approximately what — when was that?
A. In the beginning I was happy.
Q. Okay. When did Michael go to Cartier and buy you that jewelry?
A. When we went to Las Vegas.
Q. Was he with you when he did that?
A. No.
Q. Did he do it on his own?
A. He did it with Jordie.
Q. Okay. And did he come back and give it to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, you described that to the Los Angeles District Attorney as a love bracelet, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that what it was?
A. Yes.
Q. What is a love bracelet?
A. It’s a bracelet that’s a gold bracelet and that’s what it’s called.
Q. Okay. Had you ever told Michael Jackson you liked that kind of jewelry?
A. No.
Q. Were you surprised when he bought it for you?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned that during that trip, you went to the David Copperfield show; is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. And who went to that show?
A. Jordan, Lily and Michael.
Q. Did the four of you have dinner that night together?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Okay. Did Michael give you his credit card on that trip?
A. No.
Q. Okay. At some point did you all see an Exorcist movie?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall anyone watching an Exorcist movie?
A. I was told Jordan and Michael watched an Exorcist movie.
Q. All right. Did you ever object to Jordie sleeping in Michael’s room on that trip?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did you say?
A. “Jordie, when you come home, go to your bed. Go to your own bed. Come to our bed, not to Michael’s bed.” He said, “Mom, I want to stay there.” And I was very upset about that.
Q. Now, this was before the approximately 30 nights that he stayed at your home –
A. Yes.
Q. — in Santa Monica, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And you did allow him to stay at your home in Santa Monica, right?
A. Afterwards.
Q. Now, you mentioned in your interview that when Michael Jackson’s not working, he’s a lonely person, correct? A. Correct.
Q. And you also mentioned that the Cascios owned a restaurant, true?
A. True.
Q. How did you know they owned a restaurant?
A. I was — I don’t recall how I knew.
Q. And do you remember telling the District Attorney that Michael would help Jordie with his homework?
A. Correct.
Q. Would he do that at your home?
A. Yes.
Q. You also said he played a lot like a child, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And he seemed to play at Neverland a lot like a child, correct?
A. Yeah, yes.
Q. You mentioned Tommy and Merdie. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. And who are Tommy and Merdie?
A. Merdie; are my brother and sister-in-law.
Q. Okay. At some point you stayed in Santa Monica with them, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Michael Jackson there?
A. He was there.
Q. Did Michael Jackson stay with you at their home?
A. No.
Q. Did he stay at their home?
A. No.
Q. Did he stay at your home?
A. Not that time, no. Not at that time.
Q. And you stayed in Santa Monica with Tommy and Merdie?
A. Meredith. Merdie.
Q. Merdie, okay. You stayed with them at one point, right?
A. They stayed with me.
Q. Oh, they stayed with you?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Michael Jackson there that night?
A. I don’t recall, no.
Q. Okay. To your knowledge, did Michael Jackson ever meet Tommy and Merdie?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Okay. Now, when Michael Jackson was staying at your home in Santa Monica during those 30 days that you mentioned, was Jordan in school?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Was he going to school each day?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Okay. You mentioned Steve and Jo Ellen. Do you remember that?
A. Do I remember mentioning –
Q. Mentioning Steve and Jo Ellen to the District Attorney?
A. Yes.
Q. Who are Steve and Jo Ellen?
A. Steve is also my brother, and his wife Jo Ellen.
Q. Did they visit you in Santa Monica during the time that Michael Jackson was staying over?
A. No.
Q. You said that they witnessed Michael Jackson and Jordie in the bedroom, didn’t they?
A. Correct.
Q. When was that?
A. At Neverland.
Q. Did they stay there?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Did they go into Michael Jackson’s bedroom?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. And did you go into Michael Jackson’s bedroom?
A. Yes.
Q. How many times do you think you went into Michael Jackson’s bedroom at Neverland?
A. It stopped after maybe the tenth time.
Q. Okay. Describe, if you would for the jury, what Michael Jackson’s bedroom looks like?
A. Lots of dolls. Lots of playthings. It looks like a boy’s room, big boy’s room. Lots of toys and things.
Q. Is it a big area?
A. Yes.
Q. How big would you describe it as, if you can?
A. Oh, it’s a long time ago.
Q. Was it kind of huge?
A. Well, there’s an upstairs and a downstairs.
Yes, it’s kind of huge.
Q. When you used to visit Michael Jackson’s bedroom, would you see other people in there?
A. Yes.
Q. Who do you remember seeing in there?
A. The Cascio brothers. Macaulay. Brett. Wade.
Q. And you saw their parents in there, too, didn’t you?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever see Macaulay’s father in there?
A. In the bedroom?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. And why were you in the bedroom those ten times?
A. Because I’m Jordie’s mother. I’m allowed to go into the bedroom.
Q. Were you dropping clothes off?
A. Oh, I might have. I don’t recall.
Q. Did you ever sit down and watch T.V. or anything in there?
A. Yes.
Q. How often did you do that?
A. A few times.
Q. Did you ever have food delivered to you in Michael Jackson’s bedroom?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Okay. Did David Schwartz, to your knowledge, ever visit Neverland?
A. No. No.
Q. Okay. When you were in Monaco with Michael Jackson, what did you do?
A. We went to an awards ceremony. We — well, Jordie and Michael — Jordie and Michael were sick, so Lily and I went shopping and drove around. We were driven around.
Q. Did Michael Jackson pay for the whole trip?
A. Yes, the trip was paid for. I don’t know who paid for it.
Q. To your knowledge, did Michael Jackson pay for it?
A. No. No. It was an awards. I think he was given tickets to attend this award because he was receiving some kind of –
Q. Who paid for your hotel room, if you know?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Now, you indicated that at one point Jordie and Michael had the flu, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And where did you find out they had the flu?
A. In the hotel room.
Q. And were they staying in the same room at that point?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. Did you ever complain about that?
A. Yes.
Q. And what happened?
A. The room was boarded up. I couldn’t get in there. It started to get weird now. Things started to go downhill pretty quickly.
Q. Did you ever take your son and leave on your own?
A. No.
Q. After you got back from Monaco, did Michael Jackson spend nights at your home?
A. Yes. 23
Q. Were the 30 nights you’ve described after you got back from Monaco?
A. No.
Q. How many nights after you got back from Monaco do you think Michael Jackson stayed at your home?
A. Oh, perhaps a week or two.
Q. And this was a point where you were getting upset that your son wanted to spend all of his time with Michael Jackson, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, while you were in Monaco, you never saw Michael Jackson and your son ever take a bath together, right? A. No.
Q. You never saw them shower together, right?
A. No.
Q. And when did you go to France on that trip?
A. I think that was in May.
Q. And what was the purpose of that trip, if you know?
A. To get an award. He was receiving an award.
Q. Was that after the trip to Monaco or before?
A. I’m sorry?
Q. Was that after the trip to Monaco?
A. What was? What are you asking?
Q. The trip to France you described. Was there a –
A. That is the trip.
Q. That’s the trip?
A. Yes.
Q. It was all in Monaco?
A. Monaco, yes.
Q. Did you ever go anywhere else?
A. We went to Euro Disney also, outside of Paris.
Q. Was the trip to Euro Disney after you were in Monaco for the awards or before it, if you know?
A. To the best of my recollection, it was after the awards.
Q. And how much time did you spend on that portion of the trip?
A. I would say a couple of nights.
Q. Okay. Now, one point you visited Evan, Jordan’s father, at his home when Michael Jackson was there, right?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Do you recall seeing Evan and Michael in a squirt-gun-type fight?
A. That was my home, sir.
Q. That was your home?
A. Yes.
Q. So Evan had come to your home at that point?
A. Correct.
Q. Okay. And Evan, Michael and Jordie were in a squirt gun fight, right?
A. Along with his other son Nicky.
Q. Okay. And you got upset a little bit at that, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. How did you learn that Michael Jackson was going to stay over at Evan’s house?
A. Through my son Jordan.
Q. And approximately when did that occur?
A. After the trip to Monaco, I think.
Q. How many visits, to your knowledge, did Michael Jackson make to Evan’s house?
A. To my knowledge — to the best of my recollection, one or two visits.
Q. Okay. And to your knowledge, did he spend the night there?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. To your knowledge, did Jordan spend the night there?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And to your knowledge, was Evan there both nights?
A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Q. Jordan never missed school while Michael Jackson was staying at your home, right?
A. To the best of my recollection, no, he did not miss school.
Q. Okay.
A. There might have been one or two days where he missed, but –
Q. Okay. You said that Michael Jackson saw you in New York at one point?
A. Yes.
Q. And when was that?
A. In June, the middle of June.
Q. Was he staying at the same hotel you were at?
A. He arrived after we were there, yes.
Q. Did you know in advance he was going to be staying at the same hotel?
A. Yes.
Q. And how did you know he was going to be staying at the same hotel as you and your children?
A. His secretary informed me.
Q. Did he pay for those hotel rooms, to your knowledge?
A. I don’t know who paid for the hotel rooms.
Q. Did you?
A. No.
Q. And which hotel was this?
A. The Rega Royal Hotel in New York City.
Q. And how long did you stay at that hotel –
A. Oh, perhaps –
Q. — on that trip?
A. — four nights.
Q. Okay. Was Mr. Jackson there during the four nights, to your knowledge?
A. Part — part of those nights, yes.
Q. Okay. And did you introduce Mr. Jackson to other members of your family on that trip?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Did you mention your brothers were there on that trip?
A. They were in New York, yes.
Q. Okay. Did they come to your hotel; do you know?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not Michael met your brothers on that trip?
A. I don’t recall that, no.
Q. Okay. And what month are we in now, if you know?
A. June. In June.
Q. Okay. And just to clarify, the first time Mr. Jackson ever stayed at your home in Santa Monica was what month? A. In April.
Q. Okay. Do you remember telling Michael Jackson, “You’re like a magnet?”
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Do you remember telling Michael Jackson, “You’re like Peter Pan. Everybody wants to be around you and spend 24 hours”?
A. Yes.
Q. You told him, “Lily would too, except she’s not old enough”?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you said there was an incident in a room in New York, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And did you actually see what happened?
A. No.
Q. When did you learn what happened in the room?
A. In the morning I saw lamps, two lamps were broken.
Q. Okay. And Michael told you he had kicked the two lamps, right?
A. My son said that Michael Jackson did a karate kick and kicked the lamps.
Q. Actually, Michael told you that, too, didn’t he?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Would it refresh your recollection to show you what you said to the District Attorney?
A. Thank you. Yes.
MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to look at that page?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Does it refresh your recollection
A. Yes.
Q. — about what you said? Michael told you he kicked the two lamps practicing karate, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And he said he would pay for it, right?
A. Correct.
Q. And you said to him, “Lily told me a different story,” right?
A. Correct.
Q. But Lily told you they were just playing, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Now, when do you remember meeting Bert Fields for the first time?
A. Sometime in August.
Q. Was Michael Jackson still spending evenings at your home in August?
A. No.
Q. When had he stopped spending evenings at your home, if you know?
A. I would say late June.
Q. And had you heard of who Bert Fields was before that meeting?
A. No.
Q. You weren’t aware he’s one of the best-known entertainment lawyers in Los Angeles?
A. I was told that by Michael Jackson.
Q. And how long was your meeting with Bert Fields?
A. I don’t recall. It could be an hour.
Q. And that’s where Mr. Pellicano was present?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Okay. Is that the only time you’ve ever met with Bert Fields, to your knowledge?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. In the sworn declaration you filed regarding your attempt to set aside that stipulation, is there any reason why you didn’t mention Mr. Fields, Mr. Pellicano or Mr. Jackson in that declaration?
A. Is my — I don’t understand the question.
Q. That’s where you said the only reason you signed the stipulation was because of what your ex-husband threatened you with.
A. Correct.
Q. But you told the jury initially that the reason you signed it was because Michael Jackson wanted you to sign it, true?
A. Correct.
Q. That’s not contained in your declaration, is it?
A. No.
MR. SNEDDON: Objection. Asked and answered and argumentative.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You didn’t mention Mr. Fields or Mr. Pellicano either in that declaration, right?
MR. SNEDDON: Same objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Right?
THE COURT: You may answer.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When had you separated from David Schwartz?
A. Around August of ’92, approximately.
Q. Do you remember complaining that Evan, Jordan’s father, had promised him money for helping him write the screenplay?
A. Yes.
Q. And you complained that Evan had not paid Jordan the money he owed him, true?
A. I didn’t complain. It was a statement.
Q. Well, you asked him to pay him the money, right?
A. No, I did not.
Q. You didn’t tell him he owed your son $5,000?
A. It was a discussion.
Q. Okay. Did you want him to pay him that money?
A. It would have been a nice thing, yes.
Q. He didn’t do it, did he?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Now, you mentioned a gift certificate for $7,000 –
A. Yes.
Q. — that you got from Michael Jackson, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you go to Fred Segal and use that gift certificate?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you get with it?
A. Oh, clothes, jewelry. That’s it.
Q. That’s it?
A. Yes. 6
Q. Okay. Before today, when is the last time you ever saw Mr. Jackson?
A. Oh, ten years ago.
Q. Okay.
A. Eleven years ago.
Q. Have you talked to Evan at all about what you’re saying in court today?
A. No.
Q. When is the last time you spoke to him?
A. Ten years ago.
Q. To your knowledge, did Michael Jackson ever stay at David Schwartz’s home?
A. No.
Q. Did he ever visit there, to your knowledge?
A. No. Not that I recall.
Q. Other than the first time when you met Mr. Jackson at David Schwartz’s rental car company, do you recall ever seeing Michael Jackson meeting with David Schwartz?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember Evan threatening David physically?
A. Yes.
Q. And when did that happen?
MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to object as immaterial.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Approximately when did you get settlement money from the settlement with Michael Jackson?
A. Oh, I would say approximately October of ’93.
Q. Have you received any settlement money since then?
A. No.
Q. You mentioned to the District Attorney in Los Angeles a meeting Michael Jackson had with Elizabeth Taylor and Nelson Mandela. Do you remember that?
A. Correct.
MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I object as immaterial.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember, was Jordie with Michael at that meeting?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. David Schwartz was also at the apartment that Michael Jackson owned in Century City that you called “The Hideout,” right?
A. Correct.
Q. And approximately when was that meeting?
MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to object as vague as to time. What meeting?
MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it.
Q. When, to your knowledge, did David Schwartz visit Michael Jackson’s home in Century City that you call “The Hideout”?
A. It could be late August, early September.
Q. Who else was there when you got to the apartment?
A. I don’t recall who else was there.
Q. Do you remember in your meeting with Mr. Pellicano telling Mr. Pellicano, “Well, it’s Michael Jackson. I know Evan. It could be money. It could be”?
MR. SNEDDON: Object as hearsay, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever personally tell Mr. Pellicano that Evan’s concerns could be only about money? MR. SNEDDON: Same objection, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Was your lawyer, Michael Freeman, at that meeting with Mr. Pellicano?
A. I believe so.
Q. Is that the same meeting Bert Fields was present?
A. I don’t recall, but possibly. Quite possibly.
Q. If your lawyer, Michael Freeman, was at the meeting, you must have been able to get legal advice about what to sign, right?
MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object to that question. Assumes facts and calls for speculation. Can I throw in argumentative, too?
THE COURT: The objection is sustained.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ask Attorney Michael Freeman to be at the meeting?
A. No. I don’t recall.
Q. Do you know how he got there?
A. I don’t think he was there.
MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object to that question. She has not said he was there. Assumes facts.
MR. MESEREAU: She did. She did.
THE WITNESS: I don’t recall him being there.
THE COURT: Just a moment. Objection sustained.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Who is Michael Freeman?
A. An attorney. My attorney.
Q. And when did you first meet Michael Freeman?
A. Oh, I don’t recall when.
Q. Did he represent you at some point during the time period you’ve described today?
A. At some point, yes.
Q. And he was your personal lawyer –
A. Correct.
Q. — is that right? You mentioned — actually, let me ask you this: Did you mention Norma Stakos earlier?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Where did you meet Norma Stakos?
A. I’ve never met Norma Stakos.
Q. Have you ever spoken to her?
A. Yes.
Q. In what context did you speak to Norma Stakos?
A. By telephone, about where we should meet, or when Michael Jackson is coming in to New York, or things like that.
Q. Did she seem to be the person that arranged your trips?
A. Everything. Everything.
Q. Did she seem to be the person who would get plane tickets, for example?
A. Absolutely, yes.
Q. Would she be the person who would arrange transportation on your trips with Michael Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Do you remember at your meeting with Mr. Pellicano, that Mr. Pellicano said, “This is all extortion”?
MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to object to that question. Calls for hearsay.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, at the time you met Mr. Fields and Mr. Pellicano, to your knowledge, did Evan have his own attorney?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. At some point during the time you were represented by Larry Feldman, do you recall Evan also having another lawyer?
A. I don’t recall that.
Q. Do you recall the name Barry Rothman?
A. Yes.
Q. And where did you first hear about Barry Rothman?
A. Before Larry Feldman. That was Evan’s attorney.
Q. Now, at some point were you represented by Attorney Gloria Allred?
A. Two seconds. For two seconds.
Q. It was a little bit more than that, wasn’t it?
A. Two hours.
(Laughter.)
Q. You and Evan and Jordan were represented by Gloria Allred initially, correct?
A. Initially.
Q. You had meetings with her, correct?
A. One or two, yes.
Q. And then you went to Attorney Larry Feldman, right?
A. He came into the picture, yes.
Q. Okay.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know approximately when Gloria Allred represented you, Evan and Jordie?
A. Before Larry Feldman.
Q. Do you know approximately –
A. No.
Q. — what year that was?
A. Yes, ’94.
Q. Okay. Were you referred to Gloria Allred by someone?
A. No.
Q. How did you wind up being represented by her?
MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to object as immaterial.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: How many times did you meet with Mr. Pellicano?
A. Approximately three times. Three to four times.
Q. Do you know where those meetings took place?
A. As far as I recall, in his office.
Q. Did you travel to his office?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Were you there with your attorney, Michael Freeman, ever?
A. I don’t think so, no, no.
Q. Did you have discussions with Mr. Pellicano?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever believe he was your investigator?
A. Yes.
Q. And when was that?
A. When we had meetings.
Q. When you had meetings with Mr. Pellicano, you had already retained Michael Freeman as your lawyer, hadn’t you?
A. I don’t think so, no.
Q. What month do you think you first saw Mr. Pellicano?
A. In August. Approximately August.
Q. The declaration I referred to earlier was signed on August 10th, 1993, correct?
A. Okay. Yes.
Q. And it’s on Freeman & Golden, Lawyers, stationery, correct?
A. I guess so.
Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show you the declaration?
A. Thank you.
MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: That’s correct.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: (Indicating.)
A. Thank you.
Q. Have you had a chance to look at the declaration?
A. Yes.
Q. And does it appear that that declaration was signed August 10th, 1993?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And it’s on Freeman & Golden, Lawyers, stationery, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And your lawyer helped you prepare this declaration, true?
A. Correct.
Q. Was Michael Freeman representing you in your domestic dispute with Evan?
A. No. I don’t recall. I don’t recall.
Q. When did he stop representing you, if you know?
A. Shortly thereafter. Not –
Q. Okay. Now, was Michael Freeman representing you when Gloria Allred was representing you?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Was Michael Freeman representing you when Larry Feldman was representing you?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall at one point meeting with Robert Shapiro?
A. Yes.
Q. And when was that?
A. In Larry Feldman’s office.
Q. How many meetings did you have with Robert Shapiro?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Do you know why he was at the meeting?
A. I — I think as part of Michael Jackson’s legal team.
Q. Who, Robert Shapiro?
A. I think so. I don’t recall.
Q. Okay.
A. It was so long ago.
Q. Well, he was there because Michael Jackson’s attorneys were claiming extortion, right?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Robert Shapiro was there because he’s a criminal defense lawyer, right?
MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, excuse me. I want to interpose an objection before the next question comes out. Speculation. She says she doesn’t have any recollection of this, so why Mr. Shapiro –
THE COURT: Stop talking. You’re just supposed to give your grounds for the objection.
MR. SNEDDON: I’m sorry. Object. Speculation.
THE COURT: All right. Overruled. The question — the last question, would the court reporter read it back, please? (Record read.)
THE COURT: You may answer.
THE WITNESS: Correct.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember also in your meetings, meeting — excuse me, let me rephrase that. In the meetings you’ve described with Larry Feldman, Michael Freeman, Robert Shapiro, do you also remember a lawyer named Richard Hirsch being present?
MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to object as to all those people and compound.
THE COURT: It’s vague. We’ll take our break now.
(Recess taken.)
THE COURT: Mr. Mesereau.
MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
Q. Just very briefly, you and Evan hired attorneys and tried to negotiate a financial settlement before you ever talked to any police officer, right?
A. No.
Q. You were negotiating for money before you ever reported anything to any police officer in Los Angeles, correct? A. Not correct.
Q. Do you know the dates you hired your attorneys?
A. After we spoke with the police.
Q. You’re saying that under oath?
A. That’s what I believe, yes.
Q. You don’t know that for sure, do you?
A. I’m sure.
Q. Your negotiations went on long before you ever went to any police officer in Los Angeles, true?
A. False.
Q. Do you know when you first went to any police officer?
A. After the police, after we spoke to the police.
Q. It was after you spoke to Larry Feldman on a number of visits, correct?
A. Not correct.
Q. It was actually Larry Feldman who contacted the police, wasn’t it?
A. No.
Q. You didn’t talk to any prosecutor in Los Angeles before you retained Gloria Allred, correct?
A. Yes. Correct.
Q. You didn’t talk to any police officer in Los Angeles before retaining Gloria Allred, correct?
A. Can you backtrack a bit? Can you –
Q. You retained Gloria Allred before you ever contacted any police officer in Los Angeles, true?
A. Not true.
Q. Who did you contact in the LAPD before you hired Gloria Allred?
A. The police department. LAPD.
Q. You didn’t give any police statement before negotiations had already begun to settle the case, true?
A. Not correct.
Q. Did you call them yourself?
A. Did I call?
Q. The police yourself?
A. Department of Children Services.
Q. How about police?
A. No. Department of children Services.
Q. I’m asking you about the police.
MR. SNEDDON: It’s argumentative, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You were negotiating for money –
THE COURT: Just a minute.
MR. MESEREAU: Oh, pardon me.
THE COURT: All right. She did answer it before the objection. Go ahead, Counsel, next question.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You said you contacted Department of Children Services, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. That’s not the police department, is it?
MR. SNEDDON: That’s argumentative, Your Honor. And assumes facts not in evidence.
THE COURT: Sustained; argumentative.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: And you contacted Department of Children’s Services after first talking to a lawyer, true?
A. Not correct.
Q. In fact, you personally never called the police department, ever, about anything involving Mr. Jackson, true?
A. True.
Q. When did you first hire Gloria Allred?
A. After we spoke to the District Attorney.
Q. When did you first hire Larry Feldman?
A. After the police were notified, Department of Children’s Services, and Lauren Weis, the District Attorney.
Q. Your strategy was to negotiate a settlement before ever contacting law enforcement, true?
A. No strategy, sorry.
Q. And one of the levers you were trying to hang over Mr. Jackson was bad publicity if he didn’t pay, right?
A. Incorrect.
Q. Okay. When you talked to Mr. Sneddon, did he ever show you the dates when you contacted your first lawyer in this case?
A. No.
Q. When you talked to Mr. Sneddon, did he ever show you the dates before any contact was ever made to a police officer?
A. No.
Q. Do you know when your civil case was first filed?
A. I’m not sure of the exact date.
Q. Do you know who filed it?
A. I’m not exactly sure. Sorry.
Q. Okay. Do you know when you first contacted Department of Children’s Services?
A. Sometime in August.
Q. You don’t know when you hired Gloria Allred, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Do you know if Gloria Allred contacted Department of Children Services?
A. I don’t know that.
Q. Do you know when Evan first hired Barry Rothman?
A. I do not know that.
Q. He hired Barry Rothman before any report was made to DCFS, correct?
A. I don’t know.
MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object. Calls for speculation.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When did you first hire Attorney Michael Freeman?
MR. SNEDDON: Object as asked and answered.
THE COURT: I believe she said she didn’t know.
MR. MESEREAU: Okay. No further questions.
THE COURT: All right. ………………………………………………………………………….
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MESEREAU:
Q. Briefly, do you recall Evan hired counsel in June to start negotiating with Mr. Jackson?
A. No, I don’t recall.
Q. Do you recall being in any meetings with Evan and his counsel in June to try and settle the matter?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall Mr. Pellicano making settlement offers to Evan on your behalf in June?
A. No, I don’t.
Q. Do you recall any contact between Evan and lawyers in May?
A. No.
Q. Okay. You never discussed that with Evan at the time?
A. No.
Q. Didn’t you have a lot of — we’re talking about 1993. Didn’t you have a lot of contact with Evan at that point about hiring counsel?
A. No.
Q. And weren’t you in a dispute with Evan at that point over custody?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And when did that dispute begin, if you know?
A. In August of ’93.
Q. But you had had problems with Evan for 15 months before that, had you not?
A. Not — not terrible.
Q. And you don’t know when he hired his attorney?
A. No, I don’t. No, I don’t.
MR. MESEREAU: Okay. No further questions.
MR. SNEDDON: Nothing further, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You may step down.

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